Friday, June 08, 2007

Hoffman better than Mo? Please, stop

Sportable, a blog I like very much, used the occasion of Trevor's Hoffman's 500th career save Wednesday night to declare that Hoffman is the best closer of all time.

Let me rebut that argument as vehemently as I can right now. Sportable's argument is simple. Hoffman is the all-time career saves leader -- he has 80 more than Rivera -- so he's the best. Period.

That argument is a boatload of crap.

I've written about this before, when Sports Illustrated made the claim that Hoffman, not Rivera, was the best closer of all time.

Here is what I said in this space Sept. 28, 2006. I believe each point I made still stands.

Who's a better closer, Trevor Hoffman or Mariano Rivera? To me, that's a no-brainer. I'll take Rivera over any reliever who has ever stood on a mound.

Of course, I am a Yankee fan so I guess my allegiance to Rivera might be expected. The career numbers, however, back me up. For now, and since this is what the argument was about, let's compare him to San Diego's Hoffman.

Yes, I know Hoffman just became the all-time leader in number of saves. But, the save itself is a misleading statistic. You've got to look deeper to see how good a relief pitcher is, and how much his saves meant to him.

Rivera, of course is regarded as the best post-season closer of all time. He has 34 saves and a 0.81 ERA in the playoffs and World Series. What really distinguishes Rivera, however, is that 27 of those saves have been for more than an inning -- 12 of them covering two full innings.

Even in the regular season, it is that ability -- and willingness -- to pitch more than one inning that separates Rivera. Entering this season, 22% of Rivera's saves had covered more than three outs. For Hoffman, only 12% of his career saves have been for more than one inning -- meaning Rivera is shouldering a bigger burden of responsibility.

Throw in the fact that Rivera is operating in the media glare of New York City, while Hoffman, admittedly, operates when most of the country is asleep and it is clear that Rivera's body of work is more impressive.
I have to point out that the difference in number of saves is probably due mostly to Hoffman's career spanning 15 years, while Rivera is in his 13th season. The actual save total itself is, however, irrelevant. Rivera has done his work every day in the high pressure glare of the New York City spotlight, where every game has meaning and every pitch is scrutinized.

Hoffman has had a brilliant career, but much of his work was done in meaningless games. He's pitched in only 12 postseason games and has only 4 postseason saves. During most of Hoffman's tenure with the Padres his team has been hopelessly out of the race the second half of the season. And pitching in San Diego is not like pitching in New York. Go ask Ed Whitson. So, he's hardly been working under the kind of pressure Rivera has faced.

Even last night, Rivera rode to the rescue again for the Yanks. With Kyle Farnsworth imploding, Rivera got five outs to save a victory for the Yankees. I doubt Hoffman would have entered the game in that situation.

Let me also toss out another stat. Rivera, facing the tougher American League lineups, has a career ERA of 2.34 and has pitched to an ERA below 2.00 seven times. Hoffman has been below 2.00 once in his 15-year career.

So, please. No more of this nonsense about Hoffman being better than Rivera. If you think that, you're wrong. Mariano Rivera is the best ever. Period.

I can't put it any more bluntly than that.

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5 comments:

The Village Idiot said...

Actually you are wrong as usual. Rivera is a great closer but he is not the greatest ever. I don't believe it's Hoffman necesarily. Since this position has evolved into this silly glamour position, and MANY pitchers can post great stats pitching and inning or two, it's a silly topic. I love when people say "oh Rivera can pitch more than one inning". Big hairy deal. Rollie Fingers used to pitch THREE. Eat that.

Ed Valentine said...

No slight of Fingers intended. He was tremendous, and deserves his HOF status. I just find Rivera more of a throwback to the Fingers-Sutter-Gossage type of closer instead of these guys who just start the 9th inning and pile up stats. Rivera works for it.

Ryan said...

Just because Rivera does his work in New York means that Hoffman couldn't? Hoffman has dealt with some baaaad San Diego teams but has amassed over 500 saves. By the time he's done, he might be pushing 575-600.

The 88% save percentage he's put together dwarfs any other closer, including your boy Mo.

Leaving out 2003 where Hoffman missed most of the year, the Padres have 904 wins since 1995. The Yankees? 1148. Hoffman has amassed far more saves than Rivera with far less chances.

The Sportable argument was simple: Hoffman didn't receive the attention he deserves because he plays on the west coast in a smaller market. Rivera's resume is certainly storied but he's not perfect either. See 2001 World Series and 2004 ALCS.

Kevin Hayward said...

Very interesting points made on both sides of this argument. In the final analysis, I think Rivera gets the nod for his tremendous success in the postseason. That isn't to say that Hoffman couldn't have succeeded given the same opportunity, but the fact remains that Rivera has the rings and Hoffman doesn't.

Ed, I wrote in a follow-up to your comment at Sportable that there are only 10 50+ save seasons in baseball history. Two of those belong to Gagne, and two of those belong to Rivera. My contention was never that Gagne IS the best closer of all time, just that he deserves a seat at the discussion table. Link below to single season save leaders.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/alltime/leaders?breakdown=0&year=0&type=1&sort=13

Rich said...

I don't think you can throw Gagne's name around as one of the best of all-time. He had a few great years in Los Angeles, but where is he now? Better yet, where was he before LA? He was an awful starter for the Dodgers before he was banished to the bullpen. Lets be honest here, Gagne was on something. There's just no way he gets that filthy that fast. The injuries? I don't think it was coincidental. The body breaks down after you get off the juice, we've seen it all around baseball with players like Bret Boone, David Bell, Giambi, Bonds, etc.

Nice article Ed, and I'm not quite sure we will ever have a sure fire answer to this debate.